Toga! Toga! Diaper! Burkah!
On the one hand we have Pat Condell who looks at the Burkah as an instrument of oppression and who wants to have the whole thing banned, in his fervour to stop ONE form of oppression proposing a solution that denies freedom of expression to those who, whether we find that hard to believe or not, would freely choose to wear that piece of clothing. It is not up to us to deem somebody unworthy of availing of a right because of the fact that we cannot respect the choices they would make if they ...
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July 13th, 2009 at 3:50 am
There is a problem with what you suggest: to protect women. I can’t imagine how anyone could protect a woman in such a situation. She would have to be willing to give up her family and everything. Banning it would be much easier. Later, adjustments can be made to the law. It’s unfortunate it would have to be this way, but, just like in some states in the US, a battered woman can NOT get her husband out of legal trouble.
July 13th, 2009 at 3:50 am
The state takes on the responsibility of protecting the woman because she can NOT protect herself and needs the financial support of the man, etc. Domestic issues,very complex.
July 13th, 2009 at 6:37 am
== the indoctrination of children is wrong
Didn’t I just say that?
July 13th, 2009 at 6:44 am
Of course. The state has to take that responsibility. Forcing a woman to wear a burkah is a form of wife battering.
Banning would only lead to wives being locked indoors instead, plus we may end up prosecuting the women when their husbands are really at fault. Instead I suggest we allow women to voluntarily wear the garment but if we find out that her husband is forcing her he gets prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Coercion and marital violence ARE punishable by law.
July 13th, 2009 at 6:44 am
Cheers
July 13th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Yes you did, we co-posted. It’s rare for me to find myself in disagreement with you on much of anything, but here, you seem to want to take the “uninformed impressions” bit of free will, put it aside as nit picking, That little chestnut is rather the crux of the point over woumen “choosing” to wear the Burqua. IS IT REALLY STILL FREE WILL, after having been endoctrinated from childhood on to believe this “garment” is just and good, despite the reality of it? My impression is NO, it’s not.
July 13th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Exactly, and that’s why I think concentrating on whether the burkah should be banned or not is missing the point, to be honest. The reason why so many people are even considering a ban on the burkah is because it IS, undeniably, so often forced upon women against their will. So we should be concentrating on this coercion, the pressure, and the threats. Those things ARE illegal, and we should prosecute vigorously whenever it’s discovered. (more)
July 13th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Instead of banning the burkah, we should send the clear message that if you, as an adult, out of your own volition choose to wear it, then fine, go right ahead. But if we EVER find you forcing it on anybody else, especially a child, you’re going to jail. Legislation against coercion is already in place. Let’s enforce it.
July 13th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
I agree. But you don’t fight indoctrination with a ban, you fight it with education. And I would be quite in favour of making the information freely available AND enforcing legislation that ensures that those who needs it do receive it.
For example, don’t ban the burkah, but do make it illegal to withhold our educational system from children living in our society.
July 13th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
I have to admit that “banning” is NOT something I oft find mysef in support of, so I’m not at all comfortable with the position I find myself coming to thus far. I simply do feel a strong message, a push back if you will, is well due. After trying to seek compromise with an imovable medieval theocratic movement who sees our aproach thus far as weak, and us, “ripe for the picking”, I think it time to make exception, in a language they understand. A show of intollerance for their intollerance.
July 13th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Of course, for many of us this IS about more than just the burqua, and I won’t deny it myself. Regardless of what is done or not done, there are dire consiquences for the “victims” of this practice. Were it merely a matter of education, we here in the states would not essentially be fighting the Scopes/Monkee trial over an over again in every little district and backwater in this county. The issue is up to the people of the UK, I just hope not to see the xenophobes come out as the heroes.
July 13th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Oh, but I sincerely hope that you didn’t think I was proposing a compromise here. There can be no compromise. But rather than uncompromisingly banning the burkah, I would uncompromisingly prosecute any form of coercion, pressure or threat of violence. When I say “do make it illegal to withhold our educational system from children”, I’m not just saying that because it sounds nice. I expect breaking that law to lead to severe penalties, extended jail time if necessary. No. No compromise.
July 13th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Exactly, and that’s why legislation must always be very clearly designed to protect people’s rights. Don’t penalise people for the choices they make for themselves. Penalise them, and penalise them VERY severely, for conspiring to limit choices available to other people. And make no exceptions for the fact that this may be driven by a religious sentiment or that they inflict this on their spouses or children. Abuse is abuse.
July 13th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
I see it as a security issue (akin to wearing a mask and trench coat) .. don’t allow it on public forms of transportation or in banks and such. I think, anywhere it should be inappropriate to wear a ski mask, it should be inappropriate to wear a Burkah. If a police officer can ask me to remove my ski mask when they pull me over, they should be able to ask someone to remove their Burkah. I can’t wear a ski mask to school, why should someone be allowed to wear a Burkah?
July 13th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
in short, don’t ban it, just don’t give people wearing them special “religious consideration”. treat them like someone wearing a ski mask… so simple..
July 13th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Absolutely. No quibble here. In fact I made this very point in a number of comments. You should, however, be able to wear a ski mask to school as long as you are willing to take it off every time a teacher wishes to identify you. Conversely, a shop owner should be allowed to refuse entry to people who will not take off helmets, gorilla masks or burkahs. They don’t install video surveillance cameras so they can later show police officers that a black ghost made an expensive item disappear.
July 13th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Having said that, somebody who lets people wearing ski masks and motorcycle helmets into his shops but kicks out a woman wearing a burkah is, in my honest opinion, a total asshole.
July 13th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
i completely agree.. I think a lot of people make issues more complex than they need to be. Secular thinking is necessary for peaceful existence.
I don’t want anyone getting special treatment because they believe in a fairy tale, and i certainly don’t want them being abused for it.
July 13th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
by the way, thanks for doing these vids, always thought provoking..
July 14th, 2009 at 7:17 am
And I certainly wouldn’t want somebody being abused because their husband believes in a fairy tale.
July 14th, 2009 at 7:17 am
Cheers
July 15th, 2009 at 12:23 am
Do I care if people wear a Burkha? If she has beautiful eyes, I have my imagination.
Should be forced? No. What happens when women finally get sick of their oppression? I’d prefer they rise by themselves and if aid was requested, I would hope that resolution to the situation wouldn’t be one where the women coerced and exploited the men for generations via the legal system, etc. Additionally, I still see battered faces of both genders without Burkas in many countries.
Security is an illusion.
July 15th, 2009 at 6:39 am
Ain’t that the truth
July 19th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
I’ve been toying with the notion of burkahs for men. Women can have impure thoughts when they see a man’s handsome face or well toned body. Therefore we men should all shield ourselves beneath the protective, equalizing cloak of the burkah. All interactions between us and our similarly clad women would then become intensely spiritual, rather than sexual.
Oh, I forgot – no sexy voices either.
July 19th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
LOL. Sounds like fun. [shudder]